In this episode of Job­Board­Geek, we talk to Mike Woodrow of Aspen Tech Labs. The com­pa­ny, which has staff in mul­ti­ple loca­tions includ­ing Col­orado and Ukraine, pro­vides key soft­ware for the job board indus­try: job feeds, job spi­der­ing, and job board soft­ware. Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins of Job­Board­Doc­tor and Steven Roth­berg of Col­lege Recruiter learn how the com­pa­ny has man­aged to grow rev­enue by 50% each year for the past 3 years, and how the war in Ukraine impact­ed its employ­ees. Jeff and Steven also dis­cuss job tax­on­o­my, and why DHI/Dice decid­ed to get a patent to pro­tect theirs.

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Tran­script:

0:00:37.7 Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins: Hal­lo every­one and wel­come to job board geek. It’s the pod­cast about the busi­ness of con­nect­ing can­di­dates and employ­ers. My name is Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins, I’m the job board doc­tor, I am your host. And with me today, I have the extreme­ly dis­creet Steven Roth­berg of col­lege recruiter, he is the co-host. Hey, Steven, how are you?

0:00:55.2 Steven Roth­berg: I am great, Jeff. I’m pret­ty excit­ed about the week­end com­ing up, we’ve got some great weath­er and going to my first out­door musi­cal fes­ti­val in three years.

0:01:04.9 JD: And you can prac­tice being dis­crete while you’re at the music fes­ti­val. Right.

0:01:11.8 SR: Don’t tell any­one.

0:01:11.8 JD: Well, today we have some­one that I’ve known for quite a while, Mike Woodrow of Aspen Tech Labs, he’s gonna be com­ing on in a lit­tle bit to talk about what they do, it’s an inter­est­ing com­pa­ny, in a lot of ways, they form sort of the unseen back­bone of the job board indus­try, but I’ll let him talk about that, but first of all, before we get into that, Steven, I had some­thing come across my desk last week, Dice had released a Press release say­ing that they had a patent now on the tax­on­o­my that they use on their dice job board to help can­di­dates find jobs and employ­ers find can­di­dates, and if you’re not famil­iar with tax­on­o­my, it’s sim­ply a struc­ture that allows the search engine to map skills onto spe­cif­ic jobs and to map jobs onto spe­cif­ic skill sets, so ulti­mate­ly it’s a form of match­ing. In fact, it’s inter­est­ing, I have a good friend of mine that works for a very, very large mul­ti-nation­al cor­po­ra­tion, and his entire job in HR was to be doing inter­nal­ly for this com­pa­ny build­ing a jobs Tax­on­o­my so that they could do a bet­ter job of find­ing the peo­ple that they want­ed…

0:02:23.1 JD: So the thing I thought it was inter­est­ing about Dice doing this is that A. The vast major­i­ty of job boards don’t even think about this sort of stuff, they’re reliant on their search engine or their job board soft­ware or bul­lien or what­ev­er hap­pens that their tech depart­ment has come up with to this sort of match­ing B, it’s inter­est­ing because you don’t typ­i­cal­ly see any­one in the job board indus­try. Going after patents, it’s not a com­mon behav­ior, it does hap­pen, but it’s not com­mon, it’s more typ­i­cal that you’d see a Google or a Face­book or some­one… I look at this and I think, Well, but it makes a ton of sense because there’s a cou­ple of things that DHI could do with this if they want­ed to… First, they can just say, Hey, we’re the only ones that have this, and it’s gonna be a com­pet­i­tive advan­tage, it’s so great that peo­ple that come to our site, they’re gonna have much bet­ter results, you’re not gonna be able to get this on any of the oth­er tech job boards, or they could instead say, You know what, we’re gonna make this a stan­dard across the indus­try, we’re gonna get all the job board soft­ware com­pa­nies and all of the tech job boards to start using our tax­on­o­my, kin­da like what Google did with their job stream because it’s an advan­tage, it, it will help you find some­thing and it’ll obvi­ous­ly build the val­ue of DHI over­all, which is some­thing being a pub­licly held com­pa­ny, they’re very, very very focused on.

0:03:46.5 JD: So I just thought it was kind of inter­est­ing. It’s not some­thing that I see very often in the indus­try, I don’t know what are your thoughts about it steven.

0:03:54.5 SR: Inter­est­ing, I have a cou­ple of main take­aways from the press release, so one is just me being a lit­tle bit snarky, but Let’s lead… Let’s lead with that, ’cause I’m real­ly good at that. I noticed in the press release that they quot­ed, I think it was the CEO of Dice Hart­sel, where he said some­thing to the effect of that they’ve been build­ing this for 10 years, I don’t think that’s some­thing you brag about in this kind of con­text. There are def­i­nite­ly things that when… The longer it takes you to build them, the bet­ter that peo­ple will val­ue them because it just… It takes time. I don’t think that with tech, hav­ing some­thing take 10 years is some­thing to be proud of, I think that it prob­a­bly real­ly just means that they’ve been accu­mu­lat­ing the data for 10 years, and that they’re mak­ing use of data that goes back 10 years. I thought the press release just could have been writ­ten bet­ter, draw­ing on data points from a decade worth of can­di­date search­es, I think that some­thing like that would have been bet­ter rather than just…

0:04:56.8 SR: Our devel­op­ers did­n’t think that this was impor­tant enough, and it took them 10 years to get around to doing it, which is also how you could read it, that aside, it remind­ed me a lot of a com­peti­tor to Col­lege Recruiter our com­pa­ny after col­lege, after col­lege pro­mot­ed very heav­i­ly, its patents, and I can tell you that when we went up head-to-head against after col­lege, when we were talk­ing to employ­ers about post­ing to us, very few of those employ­ers would be aware of or men­tion after college;s Patents, but the ones that did it mat­tered great­ly to them, so I think it’s a real­ly great sales and mar­ket­ing tool Dice was gonna be able to employ. I am skep­ti­cal, Jeff, about whether dice is gonna be able to roll this out indus­try-wide and make this some kind of… Yeah, they’re so focused on IT, and I just can’t imag­ine that 100,000 job boards glob­al­ly are gonna say, Oh, well, you’ve got a patent on this. It must be great. I think if there were gonna be a whole lot of job boards using some­thing like that, I think it would have been… What’s now called Google Cloud, which we use for our search, there cer­tain­ly are many job boards that use that, but it’s per­cent­age-wise, it’s got­ta be way, way, way under 1%.

0:06:13.9 JD: Yeah, I think you’re prob­a­bly right, but again, like I said, it was just some­thing that was kind of inter­est­ing to me, And lis­ten­ers, if you think I’m nuts, and there are in fact dozens and dozens of job boards out there issu­ing patents right and left… Please let me know. I’m hap­py to be cor­rect­ed. So our guest today, like I said it is some­one I’ve known for a while, his name is Mike Woodrow, he runs Aspen Tech Labs. And Mike, I want to wel­come you to job board geek.

0:06:41.3 Mike Woodrow: Alright, how are you doing, guys? Yeah, thanks for hav­ing me on the pod­cast. Hap­py to be here.

0:06:45.3 JD: Yeah. Thanks for com­ing. Lis­ten, I’ve been very famil­iar with your prod­ucts, lit­er­al­ly, the com­pa­ny was found­ed the year before I start­ed con­sult­ing, and so I was telling Steven ear­li­er that one of my very first clients end­ed up on the job Mount job board soft­ware because it was avail­able and it was sig­nif­i­cant­ly bet­ter than the oth­er options that were around, I think that the whole job board soft­ware mar­ket has changed a lot over the last 15 years, but I think it’s inter­est­ing how that’s been expand­ed. So I’m curi­ous, why don’t you tell us a lit­tle bit about how you got into the recruit­ing indus­try and how you got involved with Aspen Tech and why did it get start­ed in the first place?

0:07:28.7 MW: Sure, I’ll give you a quick run-down of that, so I’ve got 30 years in recruit­ing, I was an exec­u­tive recruiter, I did some con­tract recruit­ing back pre-Y2K, so I came at it from the recruit­ing side, the retained search side, and in the ear­ly 2000s, I decid­ed that I want­ed to kin­da take advan­tage of the online recruit­ment space, so I launched a small job board that was a com­ple­men­tary, a com­ple­men­tary ser­vice to my retained search firm, so that’s how I got into the job board space, and I used some tech­nol­o­gy called that was search­es… You prob­a­bly, guys prob­a­bly remem­ber those guys back in the day…

0:08:03.0 JD: Yes, I remem­ber them. Yeah.

0:08:06.5 MW: And then about, I don’t know, five or so years lat­er, I just decid­ed I want to upgrade my tech, and so I start­ed doing some research, I met a guy and we launched an upgrade a few years lat­er, one of the guys who I launched the job board with called me and said, Hey, you know, this part­ner­ship that I’ve got in the UK, is not real­ly work­ing out. I’d real­ly like a US part­ner. Would you be inter­est­ed? And so that’s when Aspen Tech Labs got launched. We bought out some job board tech­nol­o­gy and we launched job mount, and that was where we start­ed…

0:08:34.6 MW: We start­ed as a job board provider and we still pro­vide job boards and we’ve upgrad­ed them, and it’s a good lit­tle niche busi­ness for us, but real­ly our busi­ness now, or prob­a­bly around 2010, our busi­ness real­ly start­ed to morph into jobs data, so that’s real­ly… Our exper­tise is in the jobs data space. We do a huge amount of jobs data man­age­ment, and that kind of starts with either scrap­ing or col­lect­ing jobs data that some of our cus­tomers give us, so now we have about 300 job board cus­tomers glob­al­ly, and we mon­i­tor about 60,000 cor­po­rate career sites every day for jobs con­tent, we col­lect that, and kind of what you were talk­ing about in the tax­on­o­my side, we col­lect that jobs data, we clean it, we mod­i­fy it in some ways, we might upgrade the the geolo­ca­tion or we add some tax­on­o­my to it, we cat­e­go­rize the jobs kind of what­ev­er our cus­tomers need us to do…

0:09:28.3 MW: And then we deliv­er that jobs data to our cus­tomers in what­ev­er for­mat they want, it’s a great busi­ness because it’s a sub­scrip­tion busi­ness, so… And in the last eight years or what­ev­er it’s been, the job space has just kind of con­tin­ued to grow, so our cus­tomers have con­tin­ued to grow and they’ve added more scrapes and it’s been a great busi­ness for us, that’s real­ly our core busi­ness, but we’ve added some ele­ments recent­ly, and we have some new things come in that could be inter­est­ing too, I think to the indus­try and to your users. As part of col­lect­ing this jobs data for our cus­tomers, a lot of these jobs are in the pub­lic domain, they’re not pro­pri­etary jobs, they’re in the pub­lic domain, if our cus­tomers give us an FTP or some­thing pro­pri­etary, we kin­da set them aside over here, but jobs that are in the pub­lic domain, we’ve cre­at­ed a large pool of these jobs, so we’ve got about eight mil­lion jobs in our jobs data­base now that we call our jobs index, and we’ve got var­i­ous cus­tomers, some small job boards, who take a cou­ple thou­sand jobs, and some large aggre­ga­tors who take all of our jobs.

0:10:32.7 MW: Some of the large guys wan­na have all of the jobs for their vis­i­tors, even if it’s not a cus­tomer of theirs, they wan­na have those jobs avail­able and because we scrape and col­lect the jobs from the Canon­i­cal jobs or from the their orig­i­nal source, we always have the apply link back to the ATS to apply, so there’s no kind of redi­rects three times and then we can talk about that in a sep­a­rate pod­cast, but that’s one of the bones of con­tention I have with this indus­try, is when peo­ple make 20 cents or 12 cents or arbi­trage make five cents and bounce can­di­dates around…

0:11:05.9 MW: It Dri­ves me crazy. But any­way, I digress. So we pulled the canon­i­cal jobs, and so we’ve got cus­tomers who are tak­ing that and you know, why would a small job or take these jobs, why would they take 5,000 jobs or 15,000 jobs because they wan­na pro­vide a qual­i­ty Vis­i­tor Expe­ri­ence for their users. A lot of these jobs are not wide­ly avail­able because we col­lect so many jobs and we col­lect them… We kind of have unique ways of col­lect­ing these jobs, we’ll have com­pa­nies that might only have 20 jobs, those jobs are in our jobs index, so those jobs are not wide­ly avail­able, so we can help a job board like, I don’t know, only data jobs or what­ev­er, engi­neer­ing jobs or cloud jobs, things like that, we can give them real­ly fine, final­ly curat­ed jobs that they can use, so that’s… That’s Some­thing that’s kind of inter­est­ing. And then the oth­er thing that work And I think that’s kind of cool. We’re actu­al­ly gonna present at rack bars, or we’re hop­ing to… In Ams­ter­dam, in Sep­tem­ber is we will call them busi­ness intel­li­gence, there’s a lot of infor­ma­tion that comes from these jobs, and a cou­ple of things that are inter­est­ing are Col­orado and part of New York or requir­ing salary data that’s com­ing…

0:12:20.3 MW: I think so, that’s com­ing… So would employ­ers wan­na know what their com­peti­tors are offer­ing for wage data, we think that that’s real­ly inter­est­ing. Some of the ad agen­cies have told us, Hey, we’ve got 500 cus­tomers in the UK that we man­age the recruit­ment spend for them. We wan­na know where else are these com­pa­nies adver­tis­ing? Are they adver­tis­ing in Poland? Are they adver­tis­ing in Cana­da? Where else are they adver­tis­ing so that we can use that for busi­ness devel­op­ment and we can go to our exist­ing cus­tomers and say, Hey, we can help you in Poland, we can help you in France, and not just in the UK.

0:12:56.3 JD: So those are a cou­ple of things that are inter­est­ing, and then just gen­er­al­ly, what’s hap­pen­ing with IT jobs in Oma­ha, what’s hap­pen­ing with nurs­ing jobs in the North­east… Is there an increase is there a decrease what’s hap­pen­ing with that, so we’ve got all this data and we’re in the process of stan­dard­iz­ing and clean­ing it, unfor­tu­nate­ly, we grew fast or maybe not as smart as we could, or took the 10 years that Dice took to do their thing. But the jobs are kind of all in dif­fer­ent for­mats you know as if Recruiter want­ed them this way and dice want­ed them this way, and so we’ve got these jobs that are dif­fer­ent, and so we’re stan­dard­iz­ing them all so that we can kind of look down…

0:13:34.2 MW: We sub­scribe to a Google Cloud’s prod­uct called Look­er. It’s a great visu­al­iza­tion prod­uct that sits on top of data sets, and so we’re able to visu­al­ize some of these things and offer that to our cus­tomers, so those are a cou­ple of things that are inter­est­ing that are going on and it is kind of the large organ­ic jobs as well, as busi­ness intel­li­gence around the jobs data. Yeah, so we’re kind of all about jobs data, so if we don’t real­ly deal with can­di­dates and we don’t do match­ing between can­di­dates and job post­ings, it’s just not a space that we’ve ever got­ten into, but on the jobs data side, we’re kind of always inter­est­ed and if some­one has an idea or some­thing that they’re look­ing for, and we do just a quick sales pitch, we do a ton of free tri­als, so if any­body is inter­est­ed, if I can get these jobs data, look at this jobs data, would that be inter­est­ing to me, so we’re hap­py to kin­da share that with your audi­ence and say, Hey, take a look at this if this could be of val­ue to you, great, because again, it’s a sub­scrip­tion busi­ness, so we’ll invest to get some­body go in because once they turn some­thing on, they tend to keep it.

0:14:36.6 JD: As the first spon­sor of the job board Geek Pod­cast, I think it was entire­ly appro­pri­ate that you just gave a lit­tle sales pitch, so that’s so I’m cool with that… And Just a brief com­ment. And then a ques­tion, Mike. But I remem­ber when we were togeth­er a few years ago at the what was then called rack plus, which is now Rack bus, and we were in Barcelona togeth­er, we were talk­ing about that, the job feed, where job boards can come to you and say, Hey, we’re look­ing for more engi­neer­ing jobs or more jobs in Chile or what­ev­er. And then you have a prod­uct for them, and that’s a big issue for a lot of new­er job boards, where it’s kind of a chick­en and egg sit­u­a­tion where you’re not gonna have can­di­dates com­ing and com­ing back to your site if you lack job con­tent, if peo­ple run a search and they get one result, they’re nev­er gonna come back and they’re gonna tell their friends nev­er to come back. On the oth­er hand, I’ve always had a prob­lem with going to those employ­ers and say­ing, Hey, we’ll run your jobs for free for the next three months, six months, 12 months, because to try to get those employ­ers to then pay for those post­ings after that free tri­al is a chal­lenge.

0:15:45.3 JD: So going to an inter­me­di­ary like you and get­ting those same jobs from you real­ly solves both prob­lems, and so for the job boards that are strug­gling to have crit­i­cal mass with job con­tent, I would def­i­nite­ly encour­age them to give you or your team a call, we’ve used Aspen for 10 years or some­thing like that, and your team has just always been rock sol­id, I know you’ve got some peo­ple in the US, and you’ve got some peo­ple over­seas, talk with us, if you would Mike, about what you’re see­ing is the dif­fer­ences between, say, the Amer­i­can job board mar­ket and Europe, Asia, Africa, etcetera.

0:16:22.4 MW: So there’s a cou­ple of inter­est­ing points there, one is the jobs con­tent, the aggre­ga­tors will give job boards jobs con­tent, paid con­tent. The prob­lem that I have with that is that it’s not real­ly curat­ed and a job… A new job board, espe­cial­ly that they’re attract­ing can­di­dates and they are using their mar­ket­ing dol­lars to get them to sell that can­di­date to an aggre­ga­tor for 20 cents, or they don’t even real­ly pay 20 cents ’cause they only pay on 70% of the clicks, so it gets down to 14 cents or some­thing like that. You’re sell­ing that can­di­date to some­one who does a much bet­ter job of mar­ket­ing to that can­di­date with job alerts and things like that. So I’m not a big fan of using paid feeds for con­tent, but then the flip side of it is you have to pay us for the… So you can either get paid a lit­tle bit or you can pay us, so there’s a lit­tle chal­lenge there for peo­ple, but I always say it’s much cheap­er to pay us and keep those can­di­dates… Own­er­ship of those can­di­dates your­self, but in terms of the dif­fer­ence in the mar­kets, actu­al­ly, you have men­tioned we have peo­ple over­seas.

0:17:24.3 MW: On Jan­u­ary 1st, we had 49 peo­ple in Ukraine, so we’ve had a crazy year to say the least. So we can talk about that sep­a­rate­ly, if that’s inter­est­ing to your vis­i­tors, but… So we moved a whole bunch of peo­ple and we haven’t had any busi­ness dis­rup­tion because it is kind of crazy you know and some crazy man or Putin decid­ed to do what he did rather than mess with pow­er and inter­net, which is kind of what I thought he was gonna do. But any­way, but the dif­fer­ence is, I think, is that espe­cial­ly the CPC mar­ket in the US has explod­ed, and so and the CPA mar­ket it is more mature. But even as that matures and the CPC mar­ket explodes, so that’s much more mature in the US than it is in Europe, it is one thing that I see the dif­fer­ence. So it exists over there, but it’s not as wide­spread in the US, there’s just so much going on with it, and the employ­ers are just so des­per­ate for peo­ple… Which is great for the indus­try because there’s so much adver­tis­ing going on, that’s one of the dif­fer­ences, oth­er than that noth­ing real­ly comes to mind about major dif­fer­ences. What do you see is the dif­fer­ences between the mar­kets?

0:18:33.2 SR: I def­i­nite­ly the pay for per­for­mance, which is close­ly relat­ed to pro­gram­mat­ic, they are two dif­fer­ent things, but often used togeth­er. I think anoth­er thing is lan­guages. When you’re look­ing at the Amer­i­can mar­ket, it’s basi­cal­ly the size of the Euro­pean mar­ket, but we more or less have one lan­guage and they’ve got 4,822 with them…

0:18:53.9 MW: You are right.

0:18:53.9 SR: So it’s a heck of a lot more com­pli­cat­ed to do busi­ness in Europe than it is to do busi­ness in the US, and I think a lot of the job boards, there reflect that you don’t seem to… You don’t see very many Euro­pean job boards, so you know serv­ing that the entire mar­ket, there seem to be a lot more job boards that just serve Roma­nia, that just serve Poland, that just serve the UK, etcetera, and I think lan­guage has a lot to do with that.

0:19:18.3 MW: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.

0:19:19.5 JD: Mike, I had a ques­tion, and we kin­da touched on this ear­li­er, but I just wan­na go back to it. So I think two big things have hap­pened to the indus­try, and I think they prob­a­bly hit you as hard as any­one else, the first being the pan­dem­ic and the sec­ond being the war in Ukraine. I’m just curi­ous if you can tell us a lit­tle bit about how each one of them affect­ed your busi­ness and what has it end­ed up hav­ing pos­i­tive effects for you in the long run?

0:19:44.5 MW: Yeah, I think no one real­ly want­ed to use the word kind of pan­dem­ic-friend­ly busi­ness, but the job space, cer­tain­ly JP Mor­gan cut hir­ing, but Wal­mart and Ama­zon just kind of went crazy with hir­ing, so and all D and all these guys… So our busi­ness has been at 50% a year for the last three years, and we tra­di­tion­al­ly grew kind of a 30-ish per­cent or what­ev­er, so we’ve been grow­ing sig­nif­i­cant­ly, so we can’t real­ly say it had a neg­a­tive impact at all, I mean, the busi­ness has grown and we have become more mature. So the pan­dem­ic real­ly has­n’t had an impact on the busi­ness. And then kind of the strange thing about the war in Ukraine is, it has­n’t had an impact either, we’ve got this real­ly great work­force who care, Steven, you’ve seen it, these guys, these guys… It’s like their cus­tomers are their fam­i­ly, and so I don’t know how we built this work­force like this, but every­body… And I think to be fair, after a cou­ple of weeks, peo­ple need­ed some­thing to do oth­er than fol­low the news when the war start­ed, so and we nev­er had any­one in East­ern Ukraine, we were always in Kiev and out­side of Kiev and then West.

0:20:53.0 MW: So we moved a ton of peo­ple in Jan­u­ary, we start­ed mov­ing peo­ple because I was wor­ried, and then all of our tech is AWS, so it’s all under [0:21:02.1] ____ in the US any­way. So Tech was nev­er an issue for us, it was kind of the sup­port that we were wor­ried about, we start­ed mov­ing peo­ple in Jan­u­ary, then two things hap­pened that peo­ple for­get about, one is I had some peo­ple on a busi­ness trip in Por­tu­gal when the war start­ed and their young fam­i­lies were in Ukraine, so that was a prob­lem, right? Because… Oh, good news. We had peo­ple in Por­tu­gal, bad news their fam­i­lies are in Ukraine when they’re… Imag­ine if you have a young fam­i­ly, and our work­force is young, younger than us…

0:21:31.7 JD: I have not heard.

0:21:33.9 MW: So luck­i­ly for our… Luck­i­ly for our cus­tomers, but we kin­da got that resolved, but… Yeah, so we kind of pinched our­selves, but every­body has been safe peo­ple have, some peo­ple have actu­al­ly returned to Kiev, which is a lit­tle bit sur­pris­ing, but not real­ly, I mean and peo­ple wan­na go home, peo­ple wan­na… I don’t know if you saw an arti­cle, but that said today that there was the play opened… Some plays opened last night, The­ater opened last night, or the last cou­ple of nights in Kiev, movie the­aters have opened back up, so peo­ple are try­ing to fig­ure out how to live, but it’s tough.

0:22:06.0 MW: It’s def­i­nite­ly tough for every­body. Thanks to you guys, our cus­tomers and every­one who sup­port­ed us, we’ve been able to real­ly sup­port our peo­ple and friends of… We haven’t real­ly writ­ten a big check to the Red Cross instead, we’ve done things for local com­mu­ni­ties and things like that, and we real­ly sup­port Ukraine I mean and the com­pa­nies like us who pump mon­ey into your Ukraine, that’s how those coun­tries, I think have stayed afloat for the last 10 years, there’s lots of dol­lars and Euros flow­ing into these coun­tries to keep them going, I hope that oth­er com­pa­nies will do the same thing and not lose con­fi­dence and keep work­ing with them ’cause it’s a great work­force. The coun­try needs it. It’s absolute­ly bru­tal. It’s real­ly, real­ly bru­tal. That they’re just essen­tial­ly, in my opin­ion, it’s not real­ly the Rus­sians, but Putin and they’re just try­ing to destroy the coun­try, they’re just try­ing to destroy the coun­try, and it’s sad because it’s so unnec­es­sary.

0:23:04.5 JD: It’s very dis­turb­ing. I have some clients from Ukraine, and one of them said to me, it’s like, I can’t believe this is hap­pen­ing in the 21st cen­tu­ry, but it is unfor­tu­nate­ly… Well, lis­ten, Mike, I real­ly appre­ci­ate you com­ing on the show. It’s been very inter­est­ing, and if any of our lis­ten­ers wan­na get a hold of you, what’s the best way for them to do that?

0:23:25.0 MW: Yeah, so just like Mike and Aspen Tech Labs, our web­site is webspidermount.com, that’s kind of our core site for our jobs, they can lis­ten to the ad at the begin­ning of the pod­cast and get some infor­ma­tion. But yeah, we’re hav­ing a lot of fun. And despite kind of some chal­lenges and stuff, the indus­try is grow­ing, I’d real­ly tell every­one to keep an eye on kind of the CPC and the CPA piece of the mar­ket. That’s inter­est­ing, and there’s a lot going on there. If there’s some­thing we can do to help take a feed that you’re get­ting and curate it in some way, or you can fig­ure out how they can fig­ure out how to do that, I would encour­age every­one to be there, and let’s also just remem­ber the can­di­date. Can­di­date is the one that keeps us all in Busi­ness, and so let’s remem­ber to think about the can­di­date and do the best we can for her expe­ri­ence through the process, we try and do that, and I encour­age every­body else to too.

0:24:20.5 JD: Thanks for com­ing on. I appre­ci­ate it. And Steven, if any­one wants to get in touch with you, what do they need to do.

0:24:26.6 SR: They can email me, Steven@collegerecruiter.com, and I’m hap­py if any­body is inter­est­ed, in sort of hear­ing our expe­ri­ences with Aspen, reach out to me. It’s gonna be bor­ing. I’m gonna say It’s awe­some, Mike’s folks in the Ukraine our expe­ri­ence with them. And then I’m just gonna use a word that is to be tak­en in the most pos­i­tive light, and that is, we refer to them as freaks, they get their work done ridicu­lous­ly quick­ly and just rock sol­id, I just don’t know where you find these peo­ple, but keep find­ing them and maybe give us a dozen of them or some­thing, ’cause I think every­body could use it them. They’re awe­some. Sla­va, Ukraine.

0:25:06.8 MW: We appre­ci­ate that. I we appre­ci­ate it.

0:25:08.5 JD: Thanks a lot. And That’s it for today’s episode of job Board geek. Please feel free to sub­scribe via Apple, Spo­ti­fy, Stitch­er. What­ev­er gets you excit­ed. My name is Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins, the job board doc­tor. You’ve been lis­ten­ing to the only pod­cast that cov­ers the busi­ness of con­nect­ing can­di­dates and employ­ers. That’s it for today, and I will see you again next time.

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