This episode of Job­Board­Geek inves­ti­gates how Matt Lucas of Job­Mon­key turned a sum­mer job in Alaska’s fish­eries into a series of books and a net­work of job boards and infor­ma­tion hubs. Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins of Job­Board­Doc­tor and Steven Roth­berg of Col­lege Recruiter pep­per Matt with ques­tions – some inci­sive, some not – about his rev­enue mod­el, how he’s weath­ered the pan­dem­ic, and much more. Jeff won­ders why Stack­Over­flow is drop­ping jobs, and (as usu­al) Steven has the answer.

Tran­script:

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  0:01

Hel­lo, every­one and wel­come to Job­Board­Geek. It’s the pod­cast about the busi­ness of con­nect­ing can­di­dates and employ­ers. I’m Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins. I’m the host, the job board doc­tor and with me is my co host, the vision­ary Steven Roth­berg of col­lege recruiter. Hey, Steven, how are things today?

Steven Roth­berg  0:21

Things are great. We just fin­ished our two day nine hour per day all Zoom meet­ing for our annu­al plan­ning. So if I look a lit­tle bleary eyed, it’s not the tequi­la.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  0:34

Okay. That’s good. That’s good. Yeah, I remem­ber those plan­ning meet­ings. Now that I’m a solo oper­a­tor, I don’t do them with myself, although per­haps I could. That’s why you’re hap­py, right? Yeah, yeah, are crazy one or the oth­er. I’m real­ly excit­ed today, because we have some­one that I’ve known for a while Matt Lucas of job mon­key here to talk to us about his unique set of job sites and infor­ma­tion sites. But first just want­ed to chat a lit­tle bit with Steven about some news that I stum­bled upon this week, Stack Over­flow is get­ting rid of their jobs, and I will let Stack Over­flow talk for them­selves. While tal­ent and jobs helped us get to where we are over the past decade, the tal­ent acqui­si­tion space is not one where we have a strong com­pet­i­tive advan­tage, real­ly, as far as I know, they were one of the dom­i­nant forces in the tech job post­ing world. So I was a lit­tle sur­prised by that. But they’ve decid­ed to shut it down. And first of all, I just want to say I have to applaud them for the trans­paren­cy, it was right there on their site. And they talked to their peo­ple. And they said, This is why we’re doing it. There was a long string of com­ments from peo­ple say­ing, Oh, this is hor­ri­ble. Oh, you know, I’d love this. I love the jobs fea­ture, I found all my jobs through Stack Over­flow, etc, etc, etc. I just thought it was real­ly, real­ly inter­est­ing. And Steven, I guess the only two things I real­ly have to say about this is that they did say they’re going to stay in on what I would call what they call Employ­er Brand­ing. Yeah. Which throws them in heat­ing against Glass Door fairy god boss, the muse, etc, etc, etc. And you have to ask your­self, so does this mean like polar brand­ing? is final­ly catch­ing some momen­tum here? Or is it just kind of a blip? And I think the sec­ond thing, which is kind of obvi­ous, but I point­ed out any­way, is there’s a huge hole in the tech recruit­ing space now. And the ques­tion is, who’s going to take advan­tage of that hole? Is dice going to jump in there? And or are we going to see some oth­er com­pa­ny that is sort of a sec­ond tier com­peti­tor, like top­tal, at this point, get big­ger? Or will it be a as yet unknown com­peti­tor? pop­pin? I real­ly have no idea. After all, I did­n’t even know that these guys were drop­ping their jobs. But what do you think?

Steven Roth­berg  2:49

Yeah, so that’s fun­ny, you and I basi­cal­ly found out with­in min­utes of each oth­er it was it was sort of pret­ty big news to the geeks in the job board indus­try. You know, I had with­in prob­a­bly an hour of hear­ing about what Stack­Over­flow was doing, I hap­pen to have a con­ver­sa­tion with an account direc­tor at one of the big employ­ment adver­tis­ing agen­cies, she was to put it mild­ly dis­traught. So she was telling me that she was real­ly ticked off because lit­er­al­ly a week before her Stack­Over­flow sales­per­son was encour­ag­ing her to sign up all these clients of theirs to big annu­al post­ing pack­ages. So it real­ly caught her unaware and that a lot of their clients do their media plan­ning on an annu­al basis. This was a strate­gic job board for them. So they had allo­cat­ed a sig­nif­i­cant por­tion of their spend to it. And now she’s got to go back to those same clients and basi­cal­ly say, Hey, I did­n’t know that this was com­ing. You know, I saw your newslet­ter, where basi­cal­ly stack over­flow in April 2021. So a lit­tle under a year ago was kind of telling peo­ple, Hey, we’re going to be mak­ing changes, we’re not going to tell you exact­ly what they are, because prob­a­bly we don’t know yet. But there was remark­ably great trans­paren­cy in the announce­ment the oth­er day, but a real lack of trans­paren­cy. Pri­or to that I talked when I talked with her, it was inter­est­ing, because on the one hand, she was say­ing this is a real­ly, real­ly key job board that our clients use. On the oth­er hand, what she said was that the results that their clients were get­ting, and her word was was neg­li­gi­ble, or when was and so the response rate to the post­ings was neg­li­gi­ble, and yet they’re rec­om­mend­ing those post­ings to, to their clients. And those two things don’t go togeth­er for me.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  4:37

Yeah, that’s that is kind of odd. Well, I guess we’re just gonna find out what hap­pens, right. It’s an unusu­al thing. It’s not some­thing that I real­ly expect­ed to be talk­ing about, but that’s what makes life inter­est­ing. That’s why we’re a job board geeks because we do find this stuff. Inter­est­ing. And speak­ing of inter­est­ing we have here today Matt Lucas of job mon­key he finds all this stuff inter­est­ing. be fas­ci­nat­ed at this point. But he’s also been in this indus­try for a very long time. So Matt, wel­come to Job Board geek.

Matt Lucas  5:07

Well, thanks for hav­ing me on.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  5:08

Yeah. I’m glad that you could come on. Why don’t you tell the lis­ten­ers a lit­tle bit about your­self and how you got into the job board indus­try and how Job mon­key and all of the oth­er asso­ci­at­ed sites that you have start­ed up

Matt Lucas  5:21

so I’m based out of Seat­tle, Wash­ing­ton. I was a ser­i­al entre­pre­neurs since col­lege, basi­cal­ly where I start­ed four com­pa­nies in col­lege. One of them was infor­ma­tion prod­ucts or pub­lish­ing com­pa­ny, which we’ll talk about but I also had a sun­tan lotion com­pa­ny and a real coconut shell and a trav­el com­pa­ny and that col­lege pro­mo­tions com­pa­ny I start­ed out or the how my pub­lish­ing com­pa­ny in the first busi­ness real­ly start­ed was in high school, I’d heard all these rumors about how you can make all this mon­ey work­ing up in Alas­ka fish­ing indus­try, but this is back in the 80s. There was no there’s no inter­net, no infor­ma­tion avail­able or any­thing. So I con­vinced to my bud­dies to jump in a Volk­swa­gen Bug. We drove up to Alas­ka and end­ed up in a town called Ketchikan in south­east Alas­ka. About three or four weeks before the sea­son start­ed, we each start­ed with $300, no cred­it cards, no cell phones, obvi­ous­ly, no inter­net got there, like three to four weeks before the sea­son start­ed. We had to live in the woods off for like $3 a day basi­cal­ly died. Like camp­site mon­ey. And we sur­vived. But there’s a lot of like hard­ship that we had for that first three weeks before we got jobs in the boats. So when I was up there, I was like God, if there was a if there was a guide that would have told us like when to go, where to go, what to bring all the kind of basic infor­ma­tion that would real­ly help out. So I start­ed jot­ting down notes even before I got my job. And then when I was on the boat, we’d go to dif­fer­ent fish­ing ports, I’d hop off and I’d kind of run around a lit­tle bit and, and talk to peo­ple and so forth. And then my fresh­man year fourth quar­ter I wrote the first author author­i­ta­tive guide on work­ing in Alas­ka effi­cient indus­try self pub­lished it sold it direct­ly to col­lege stu­dents start­ed off mail order then became an inbound call cen­ter thing end­ed up being the Bible of work­ing up there real­ly about 80% of peo­ple that went up to Alas­ka for the next 10 plus years. I still have a site that’s based on it now. So it’s still kind of the author­i­ta­tive guide that every­one would use the this book and they’d guide him up there. And orig­i­nal­ly, I thought it was just peo­ple on the West Coast, I’d want to go but then peo­ple in you know, Min­neso­ta, Michi­gan, Flori­da every­where. Every­one kind of want­ed this big adven­ture to Alas­ka to expe­ri­ence kind of what Alas­ka was about but also to poten­tial mak­ing good mon­ey. So after the first year, I start­ed think­ing about what oth­er cool jobs would col­lege stu­dents want to do. And one of the bud­dies that went with me to Alas­ka was going to teach Eng­lish in Tai­wan that next cal­en­dar year basi­cal­ly, so I had him, we put togeth­er out­line, I had him kind of do a bunch of research and wrote a book on that. And we did one on I think I’m work­ing on a cruise ship we did. By the time I sold the com­pa­ny, we had 15 dif­fer­ent guides, they’re all about two to 300 pages long this again, this is pre inter­net, got it up to because like $8 mil­lion in sales or close $8 mil­lion in sales sold it to a com­pa­ny in Michi­gan, a great mar­ket­ing com­pa­ny there that we used to do busi­ness with sold to them in 1997 moved over there on employ­ment con­tract three year plan­ning employ­ment con­tract in 97. We start­ed like real­ly doing inter­net kind of stuff in 95. We already had kind of a small lit­tle team set­up, we’re try­ing to fig­ure out how to make it work. And back then no one knew what to do there. You know, it’s taboo to sell on the inter­net and all this kind of stuff. And but you knew it was gonna be some­thing Well, when we got over there, they decid­ed that inter­net was not going to real­ly any­thing big. So they want­ed to just stay with the paper prod­ucts. And they were like, no, but it was it was at a time when inter­net was can­ni­bal­iz­ing sales like short­ly after I sold it lit­er­al­ly every­one thought they get all their infor­ma­tion for free on the inter­net real­ly bad infor­ma­tion out there. But no one real­ly want­ed to pay any­more for prod­ucts because they could just look on the inter­net, it’s new and so forth. So in 1999 I just saw it that is okay, this is doomed here. So I nego­ti­at­ed with the own­er of the com­pa­ny and bought back all the IP and put it online for free under job­mon­key. So we had a huge advan­tage then in 99 because we had I think about 5000 pages worth of con­tent that was all writ­ten in house real­ly high qual­i­ty con­tent imme­di­ate­ly the search engines loved us we got like sight of the day inside of the week by Yahoo like short­ly after launch into our traf­fic shot up in for a year is even now just because of our deep con­tent that’s all sole­ly writ­ten by us and not shared with any­one else. We’ve done real­ly well organ­i­cal­ly in the search

Steven Roth­berg  9:26

so I I bet that I was one of your cus­tomers should look you up. Have a look in your data­base and kind of when you start­ed I was in col­lege and I def­i­nite­ly remem­ber buy­ing like a pam­phlet book kind of thing about fish­ing in Alas­ka because the mon­ey was real­ly great and a lot of young peo­ple went and did that and the more that I read the more I was con­vinced hell no. So that’s a good thing, right? It’s not a bad thing for can­di­dates opt out if they’re if they’re not a good fit. But I would have been a dan­ger to myself and oth­ers on those boats with with­out a doubt. So I it’s kind of hard for me to phys­i­cal­ly cause any harm when run­ning a job board.

Matt Lucas  10:13

Yeah, it’s not for every­one but I worked so the first, the first two months I was on the boat, I work 18 hours a day for 30 days straight got a week of kind of par­tial time and Nether So it taught you how to work. And if you weren’t a good work­er or could­n’t han­dle that, then there’s no way that that I’m the type of boat I was on. There’s oth­er types of fish­ing boats where you don’t have to work that hard. It’s kind of dif­fer­ent work. But the type I was on you work every day it was or every sec­ond it was light out. You had those that year in the water, basi­cal­ly. So yeah,

Steven Roth­berg  10:40

one of my kids did tree plant­i­ng in British Colum­bia, that’s prob­a­bly anoth­er one that that you focus on. And, and basi­cal­ly oth­er than black­flies, and bears, there’s real­ly no haz­ard. They actu­al­ly were more wor­ried about the black flies eat­ing them than the bears. But the bears also So ques­tion for you, you men­tioned, you know, being very con­tent rich, and I think that that’s an area that vir­tu­al­ly every job board knows that that’s a good strat­e­gy to have a lot of real­ly good Yep, con­tent. Cou­ple things. One is okay, so you kind of basi­cal­ly start­ed with a whole wealth of con­tent. So one ques­tion that I’d like to have you address is sort of what are you doing now, you know, flash for­ward 2025 years is, you know, how are you gen­er­at­ing that con­tent. And the oth­er thing is, when I was on your site, I noticed that what you’ve done way bet­ter than what we a col­lege recruiter have and and prob­a­bly most oth­er job boards, is real­ly inte­grate job search links into your con­tent. So if I’m read­ing an arti­cle about Alas­ka Salmon Fish­ing, I can click on a link there and go to the jobs on your site that offer Alaskan Salmon Fish­ing jobs, you have that extra step is sur­pris­ing­ly missed by a lot of job boards. So maybe you can kind of address your your con­tent, strate­gies and tac­tics.

Matt Lucas  11:52

So we try to iden­ti­fy areas that we think are cool, inter­est­ing, or give some kind of expe­ri­ence or make good mon­ey or some­thing that we think would fit into the job mon­keys kind of what our mot­to is there, we devel­op an out­line. And then we either we used to write a lot of con­tent in house, but now we find a domain expert, some­one in that in the field, usu­al­ly and pay them to write it for us and we edit it our­selves in house and then we’ll pub­lish it we’re up to 80 some­thing indus­tries or ver­ti­cals that we’ve have pret­ty detailed con­tent on, there’s a num­ber of oth­er ones that we are one want to add, we slowed down a lit­tle bit of last cou­ple years of adding new con­tent, our strat­e­gy has been and it’s not the right or wrong, but we do what’s called Ever­green con­tent. So we do con­tent that you know is not like cur­rent events stuff that much. But it’s it’s more this con­tent, you write it once and then you have to go back and mod­i­fy it a lit­tle bit as things change in the indus­try. But it can last, you know, years basi­cal­ly with with minor mod­i­fi­ca­tions, so so that makes it more effi­cient. It’s hard to always have in you guys, or at least, Jeff, you do a lot of obvi­ous­ly what’s going on right now with fan­tas­tic, but it got to write stuff every day or every cou­ple of days and like this, we can take some breaks in there and not real­ly tell con­tent if we feel the need to use those resources some­where else. So

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  13:05

yeah, actu­al­ly, you know, that’s kind of inter­est­ing that you say that, because orig­i­nal­ly my con­tent strat­e­gy was 100% ever­green stuff. And in fact, the most pop­u­lar stuff on my blog is stuff that lit­er­al­ly I wrote five or sev­en years ago that are all about rev­enue strate­gies, and how do you make a deci­sion about what you want to offer employ­ers and that sort of thing. But I’ve also found that if I lay­er in that, that news stuff, you know, like the Stack Over­flow stuff, that tends to keep new peo­ple com­ing in to my site. So it’s kind of I kind of split the dif­fer­ence. And I’ve had some clients that try that strat­e­gy as well. But like you said, that means you’re con­tin­u­al­ly re rein­vent­ing and rework­ing the news and the cur­rent event type stuff. And that

Matt Lucas  13:47

works, too. It’s just depend­ing on what you choose to do, if you can do both, but it’s just, you know, that’s a whole dif­fer­ent way of doing it, then ever­green, so just depends. Yeah, they both work, you gave

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  13:55

us a pret­ty nice overview of how the site came about and how the struc­ture works and what­not, what sorts of chal­lenges or I should say, what is the lat­est chal­lenge that you faced with your busi­ness? Because I and I say I’m, I’m sort of laugh­ing about that, because you gave a pre­sen­ta­tion at a con­fer­ence that I was at, and you talked about the many chal­lenges that you’ve gone through over the years, like like any­one that’s run a busi­ness, but what’s the lat­est chal­lenge that you’ve had to fight and sur­mount?

Matt Lucas  14:23

Let me see if you guys can guess so if your web­site is all about leav­ing your home­town and work­ing dif­fer­ent places around the US or world what might it be right now? Yeah, so no COVID has been bru­tal. Luck­i­ly, you know, it did­n’t affect all of our indus­tries that we cov­er, but it affect­ed a lot of them and it’s been pret­ty you know, it’s been pret­ty hard because it’s what my core what I real­ly like about job mon­keys, I like peo­ple to trav­el. I like peo­ple that have new expe­ri­ences to get out of their home­town to kind of you know, they may not they’re not com­fort­able going over to Por­tu­gal or France or some like this, but they might be com­fort­able. Going across our state or across a few states, and we’re kind of sum­mer camp, or we’re going to resort or some­thing like that. So I think that’s very impor­tant for peo­ple, us, you know, res­i­dents don’t do it near­ly as much as some oth­er coun­tries. And I think it’s just some­thing that you know, so I can’t change the world with this, but I can do a lit­tle bit that just try to help pro­mote that.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  15:17

So I have to ask you, then, Matt, do you have a I did­n’t see this. But do you have a sec­tion in the job mon­key uni­verse that focus­es on jobs in Iowa?

Matt Lucas  15:25

No, not a spe­cif­ic state. But there’s prob­a­bly com­pa­nies that, you know, I’m not kid­ding, think about indices might have, there’s prob­a­bly some­thing there, Jeff, if you real­ly want to move across.

Steven Roth­berg  15:36

So Matt, I’m pret­ty con­fi­dent that if you were to build a sec­tion on Iowa, they will come they will come. Nice. Field of Dreams ref­er­ence. Sor­ry. Okay. Yeah, I got it. Per­fect.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  15:52

So talk to us a lit­tle bit about the rev­enue mod­el for job mon­key, are you like most job boards? Are you depen­dent pri­mar­i­ly on employ­er rev­enue? Or are you do you have mul­ti­ple rev­enue streams,

Matt Lucas  16:04

we do have mul­ti­ple rev­enue streams. So adver­tis­ing was actu­al­ly for a bunch of years was the major­i­ty of our rev­enue. Because we had so much con­tent, were able to mon­e­tize those pages with Google’s AdSense, and then some direct adver­tis­ing and so forth, that has died down quite a bit in the last bunch of years, just as far as what you make per 1000, pageviews, and so forth, it’s gone down sig­nif­i­cant­ly, still a decent part of our rev­enue, but But it’s much small­er than what it was. So we have you stan­dard job board rev­enues with we’ve gone and kind of thanks to Steve and faith, even in faith, we’ve got Per­for­mance Base, we’ve offered a prod­uct last year that we’re still get­ting cus­tomers con­vert­ed over to but that’s kind of we don’t want to do as much dura­tion based job post­ings any­more. We want to just do it on a per­for­mance lev­el. And I think it’s bet­ter for every­one. And the way we do it, it makes it real­ly easy for an employ­er to get start­ed up with us. And it’s hands free almost because we either take a feed or or mir­ror their their job board and just the jobs com­ing off on and off our side as a man­ag­er on job post­ings wher­ev­er they man­age that. So well, that’s

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  17:06

cool. And that makes a lot of sense, giv­en the amount of con­tent that you have and sort of the size, I would think of in terms of num­ber of pages and the the over­all traf­fic that you must have all the from all the dif­fer­ent pages, you more than than many job boards that have been focused on dura­tion base, I guess the final ques­tion I have and then we’ll prob­a­bly need to wrap it up. But I’m just curi­ous, what are your plans going for­ward as we climb out of COVID? Are you imag­in­ing Do you have some big new things that you’d like to roll out for for job­mon­key

Matt Lucas  17:38

We do. Work I mean, con­tin­ue to the con­ver­sion to Per­for­mance Base is obvi­ous­ly a major one for us and kind of work up or work down the fun­nel maybe a lit­tle bit and it’s hard­er to work down to, you know, cost per hire, but we might play around with some oth­er things in there. But there’s so many fac­tors that come into play there that are out­side our con­trol, just as far as you know, the the job posi­tion, the title, how it’s writ­ten, how they hire all that kind of stuff. So we’re see where we can work down there a lit­tle fur­ther with cer­tain employ­ers. I love the work from any­where aspect of the world. Now I absolute­ly love it. And I love dig­i­tal nomad to like a tra­di­tion­al dig­i­tal nomad that was­n’t real­ly work­ing as well for job and even though we’re start­ing to get into but it was real­ism or orig­i­nal­ly, you know, either cre­ative jobs or pro­gram­ming jobs and so forth. But the work from any­where aspect, but I guess both them now where do we want to con­vert a lit­tle bit more into that because I just think that’s a fan­tas­tic oppor­tu­ni­ty beyond the col­lege or recent grad­u­ate aspect of it. And I’m not sure if that’s going to be in a sep­a­rate site, or if it’s going to be on job mon­key ful­ly. We’re still kind of play­ing around with how to how to get so we’ll def­i­nite­ly have it on job mon­key, but we might do a full blown kind of play into that.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  18:46

Yeah, I would think actu­al­ly, you know, you look at old guys like me, I would be very inter­est­ed in look­ing at jobs that had me mov­ing around in dif­fer­ent places work­ing for six months here four months there that were not nec­es­sar­i­ly tech­ni­cal based. Yeah, work­ing on a fish­ing boat plant­i­ng trees being attacked by black flies and so on.

Matt Lucas  19:07

Well, that’s still I mean, that’s still job mon­key so I mean, there’s we have we get retirees or peo­ple that want to do a career change or just kind of burnout using job mon­key all the time. So it’s not just a col­lege site. Oh, yeah. So and we get that’s, that’s prob­a­bly 20 or 30% of our traf­fic, actu­al­ly.

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  19:21

Yeah. Well, I know what I’m doing after I get off this record­ing.

Steven Roth­berg  19:26

So Jeff, I think I think what you’re envi­sion­ing Jeff to is like, is doing more of that project based kind of work a month here six months there three months some­place else, you know, if you’re in mar­ket­ing, for exam­ple, right, we have been able to move around, maybe you’re doing a mar­ket­ing project in oil and gas for a Hous­ton based com­pa­ny and they don’t care where you are. So that’s when you can go to Alas­ka and be up there in the sum­mer­time and be work­ing for that Hous­ton based com­pa­ny or there’s an Alaskan com­pa­ny who kind of wants you on site for three months and then and not after that, that kind of remote work. work I think is become much more fea­si­ble for every­body. Employ­ers are start­ing to real­ize they can do it. And can­di­dates are say­ing, Okay, I’m ready. When do I When do I leave? Yeah, yeah, that’s

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  20:09

inter­est­ing. Well, I mean, I think one thing we can all agree is that the world of work con­tin­ues to be chang­ing. And the pan­dem­ic has cer­tain­ly giv­en it a good kick in the rear in terms of chang­ing more rapid­ly than it had been. So, Matt, if peo­ple want to get in touch with you after lis­ten­ing to this pod­cast, how can they do that? Oh, sure. So

Matt Lucas  20:29

you can either send me an email at Matt M A T T at job­mon­key comm. You can go to the web­site, jobmonkey.com. Use the con­tact form there. That’ll that’ll come to me or on LinkedIn. Matthew, Lucas, five, any one of those works, I’d love to hear from you. So

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  20:43

Well, Matt, thanks so much for com­ing on. We real­ly appre­ci­ate it.

Matt Lucas  20:46

Well, thanks. And great job, you guys. You guys are doing awe­some. Thanks. Thanks

Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins  20:49

a lot. And Steven, if folks want to get in touch with you. How do they do that? Sure.

Steven Roth­berg  20:53

Reach out Stephen at col­lege recruiter.com. And Matt, it has been awe­some recon­nect­ing with you. Like­wise.

Unknown Speak­er  21:00

And I know that if you’re lis­ten­ing on the pod­cast, obvi­ous­ly you can’t see any­thing but one of the great things about this par­tic­u­lar pod­cast is we have three rad­i­cal­ly dif­fer­ent back­grounds. My back­ground is it’s usu­al bor­ing, Elvis Costel­lo poster and radi­a­tor behind me Steven looks like he’s in some sort of ser­i­al killers lair. And then Matt is in this won­der­ful light room with a fire burn­ing behind him with plants. So I think if we’re going to be doing any rat­ing, I think Matt wins this one. So any­way, that’s it for this episode of Job­Board­Geek. Please be sure to sub­scribe any­way you want we’re on Apple. We’re on Spo­ti­fy. We’re on Google. We have an RSS feed etc, etc. Just click the lit­tle but­ton on the on the play­er. My name is Jeff Dick­ey-Chasins. I’m the job board doc­tor and you’ve been lis­ten­ing to the only pod­cast that focus­es on the busi­ness of con­nect­ing can­di­dates and employ­ers. That’s all for now. We’ll see you next time.

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